More theaters and Show Dates added! First, the movie was released with one day showing only, Then, the demand was enough to show for two days. Now, it will now pop-up in theaters in most markets for five days –November 3rd through November 7th. Also opening in Great Britain and Canada!
EXTENDED TO NOVEMBER 18TH!
| Another Showdate added! The movie will now pop-up in theaters for two days only–November 3 and 7. For those in Manhattan check out reservations at the AMC Empire 25 Times Square, Regal Union Square, and Regal Battery Park. |
| Click here to make your reservations! Click here for the trailer! |
Complete transcription from show
T Carnes
Hello, Journeyers!
I’m Tony Carnes, your host for this journey through New York City’s religions.
This morning we have a conversation with Max McLean, an actor widely known for his rich voice in the podcast “Listeners Bible,” and inspiring dramatizations of CS Lewis’s books. The Wall Street Journal has called his stage presentation of CS lewis’s The Screwtape Letters, “wickedly witty, a one hell of a show!” The New York Times has called his current play CS Lewis’s The Great Divorce, “instantly thought provoking, consistently intriguing.”
As an avid dramatic producer, Max McLean is also the founder of the Fellowship for the Performing Arts.
This November 3rd will mark the debut of the full-length movie on the spiritual transformation of CS Lewis, the author of the Narnia tales. Max wrote the dramatic play upon which the movie script is based, and plays a mature CS Lewis looking back upon his journey to conversion to Christianity. Welcome to the show, Max.
Max McLean
Thank you, Tony. Good to be with you.
T Carnes
Max, I understand that New York City happens to be your residence.
Max McLean
It is.
T Carnes
Is it your favorite city?
Max McLean
Well, as you know, it’s a wounded city now. But at its peak, when it’s doing what it does, there’s no city in the world like it.
T Carnes
So many wonderful things have happened to you here before the pandemic.
I feel like putting on a play in New York City is very different from putting on a play any anyplace else. Is that what you find?
Max McLean
I think that’s true. I mean, you know, here in New York, you have world class artists, world class theatre companies coming together, producing the kind of world class art that gets created here and, and gets exported around the country and around the world. And so being in New York really makes us step up our game.
T Carnes
Lewis is a Christian apologist. He didn’t start that way, of course. He started as a scholar with a very materialistic view. And then through a series of dramatic moments and personalities that he met, he became a Christian. But today, he’s often known as an apologist, a evangelist for the Christian faith.
How is he received in New York differently than other places in the country and also in England where you’ve performed
Max McLean
Well surprisingly, the show ran in New York for 15 weeks, a one person show about a religious conversion. I like conversion stories because “once I was this but I then became that” is about change. It is about a conflict that produces change. And Lewis personifies the kind of of religious conversation about spiritual life that a lot of smart, artistic, well-read people can relate to.
In theater. people self-select what they’re interested in. Some people just like musicals other people like comedies, but other people really want to have a serious conversation. They like a well-told story about a serious conversation that has to do with religion. I do think that New York was a really good place to launch “The Most Reluctant Convert. The Untold Story of C.S. Lewis.”
T Carnes
I recently had the experience of watching your new movie, “The Most Reluctant Convert. The Untold Story of C.S. Lewis.” I really like how you start with the behind-the-scenes preparations for shooting the movie, and then, you exit through a private door to the reality of Lewis’s life. It’s a wonderful introduction.
As you transform into Lewis, your literary alliterative introduction to his belief at that time, that the universe was empty of any meeting and that humans are destined to the cosmic garbage heap, is just stunningly beautiful. And, of course, tragic at the same time.
Max McLean
Well, that was Lewis’s belief system. Of course, he had lost his mother to cancer. He had a terrible relationship with his father. He was in the trenches during the Great War, World War 1, which he described as seeing horribly smash men that look like crushed beetles. And so, his experience of suffering and evil gave him the conclusion that either there’s no God behind the universe, or a God indifferent to good and evil, or worse, an evil God. And he couldn’t come to terms with the world being made by a wise and good creator, because that wasn’t his experience.
T Carnes
Now I’m wondering, and I’m sure audiences will wonder, that you’re the playwright for the theatrical drama. You have all types of activity in this movie, both behind the scenes, but also as the narrator as the mature Lewis reflects on his life. How deeply are you affected? You’ve played a lot of in the Lewis plays, how deeply are you attached to CS Lewis?
Max McLean
Well, he’s become my spiritual guide,
I was converted as an adult in my 20s. And so was Lewis; I think he was 32 when he finally committed to Jesus Christ, though he probably committed to real monotheism, what he calls the God of the Jews. Not that he was Jewish, but he understood that there was one personal God. I think he finally understood during the Trinity term of 1929. He said, “I gave in and admitted that God is God,” knelt and prayed, perhaps the most reluctant convert in all England.” So, his experience of going from atheism to Christianity has always been helpful to me.
He always knew where the landmines were. And he always knew where the important questions were. God came from someplace else and entered into our created world, and came out again, bringing us with him.
And you know, he says, either you believe that that’s what the Christian believes. Or you believe that he was a lunatic on the level of a poached egg, he says, or he’s telling lies from the devil of hell. And he says, unless you believe that–and I can’t, he said, you turn to the Christian story. And so then, that opens the door. And then once he gets in the door, he finds this element of desire. If I find in myself a desire, that no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is I was made for another world.
T Carnes
You suggest that this desire, maybe, went all the way back to his childhood, reflectively anyway for him. Toward the end of the movie, you cover his interaction with some famous personalities, arguing about God and Jesus and all of that. But then, you reflect back that he had felt something unusually touching himself, when his young brother as a kid, brought him a model of a garden to look at. And he comes in his hands with this toy garden. It has a white flower, and it’s beautiful. The movie suggests that Lewis at that moment in childhood felt something different. Is that what you’re saying, and what did he feel there?
Max McLean
These are elements of a deep desire that no experience in this world could satisfy.
He recalled that experience of his brother’s biscuit tin of moss and twigs and flower to make a toy garden. He said it was the first beauty he had ever known. It was a feeling of enormous bliss. And it was a sensation of desire. But before he knew what he desired, it was gone. And he called that joy.
And he thought joy is not to be confused with happiness or pleasure, except that anyone who’s ever tasted joy will want it again. He said, it’s almost like grief, but the kind of grief we want. And so that was a kind of the pointer that there’s something beyond this world. And of course, after Lewis’s conversion, he said that he didn’t think that, that earthly pleasures were ever meant to satisfy this desire but were only to arouse it. And so thus he made it his duty to press on to that other country and to help others do the same.
T Carnes
Now, that childhood experience is probably something many children have, and I’m wondering, you have traveled 1000s of miles on stage. you’ve traveled also 1000s of miles as a kid, as an army brat. I wonder maybe you could tell us a little bit about your journey of getting into drama, and also getting into Lewis’s God-world.
Max McLean
Yeah, yeah. Well, I went into the theater first. And it was primarily to overcome my fear of public speaking.
T Carnes
And this was at the University of Texas, am I right?
Max McLean
That’s right. That’s right. You and I share an alma mater, don’t we?
T Carnes
That’s right. That’s why I had to bring it up.
Max McLean
And probably roughly about the same time in the 70s. And it was there that, you know, I took an oral interpretation class at the weird part of campus, the drama department. And that’s where the bug bit. And so I started to work on my voice, you know, my ability to mine my ability to move to interpret the text.
T Carnes
By the way, I’m curious, what was that bug? I mean, when you went in, what was going on that you said, Oh, well, I never really thought about going into drama.
Max McLean
I had what is known as socio-phobia, the fear of being in front of people. And I was called out on it in an experience that was really very embarrassing. I was called on in class. And so I figured I had to do something about this. So I went to the weird part of campus and, and took an oral interpretation class. I found out that I could overcome this pathology, I suppose. And I had a desire, to express myself vocally. And as a result of that, I started to apply and read scripts and, and just really enjoy the theatrical vernacular Shakespeare, Bernard Shaw, Arthur Miller, Tennessee Williams, I mean, these guys were just writing stuff that really moved me. And then shortly, my objective was to go to England to go to drama school, which I ended up doing, but in the process of going from America to England, I met the Lord. And He sort of redirected me. Not initially, or I think initially it was there, but over time, that impulse was developed and ultimately became Fellowship for Performing Arts.
T Carnes
You didn’t grow up religious, did you?
Max McLean
Well, I had a nominally Catholic background, which, when I recall, in my younger age, I really took it pretty seriously. I mean, I was compelled by catechism, by the stories of Jesus. I’ve met some wonderful priests that really believed and were encouraging. But you know, by the time I was 14, I just put all that stuff behind me. I had other things and left them behind completely. And I went through an atheistic period and then more of a new age period. And then I kind of hit bottom in the sense of spiritually,
T Carnes
Was that in America or England?
Max McLean
It was in between because dad was stationed in Germany. Hitting bottom has all sorts of forms. In my case, it was just this malaise of a life not going anywhere or almost being rather listless. Or going from being super ambitious for the wrong things to being listless, and then a kind of going back and forth. So, I think what Christ did was he sort of ordered my loves and ordered my objectives and realized that I was loved and that God had a purpose for me.
T Carnes
At that time, I don’t think you really knew much about Lewis. He didn’t play a role in your conversion.
Max McLean
Lewis came shortly thereafter.
T Carnes
Oh, really!
Max McLean
i remember somebody gave me a copy of Surprise by Joy because it was about his conversion story. I was 23, just converted. I think the only I had read the New Testament. I’d read The Brothers Karamazov, which by the way is probably the greatest Christian novel ever written. I think somebody tried to give me a John Stott book, which was a little too dry for me at that time. But they gave me this Lewis book, Surprised by Joy. And I read it from cover to cover, I think it went by me like a freight train. I didn’t know what he was talking about. Then that person said, well, try this one. So, they gave me The Screwtape Letters. And I said I know this guy!
T Carnes
This guy, when you play him, it seems like you inhabit him.
Max McLean
I mean, there’s no doubt that the insight Lewis has about spiritual warfare from a demon perspective is so real. And of course, he’s being so transparent, right? You know, he’s talking about his own experience.
T Carnes
Can you give us a little Screwtape this morning?
Max McLean
You’re affectionate Uncle Skcrewwtaape!.
T Carnes
Yes, a fantastic portrayal you have! And I got to say, your portrayal of Lewis was… When you go from behind the stage, through the private door, and then you’re out into the real world and playing Louis, it actually seems like you are Lewis!
Max McLean
Well, I hope so. That’s the objective. You want to get under his skin. I feel like I know Lewis really well. And actually “The Most Reluctant Convert” play, then the movie. emerged as a result of doing Screwtape and writing the adaptation to The Great Divorce. Because in both cases, they reflect on his conversion, in the sense of what were the impulses that were keeping him away from Christ.
In Screwtape, it’s about spiritual warfare, from a devil’s point of view, tempting you away from doing what you want to do. And The Great Divorce, it’s the opposite side of the coin, where you’re resisting the spirit. The Spirit is calling you, your conscience is telling you what the right thing to do is, and you just keep suppressing it and say, No, no, no. Both of those books are born out of Lewis’s own experience as he was wrestling with his own conversion.
T Carnes
I wonder, as you’ve gone through his books, which sounds like you sort of went in the order of that they touched you most personally, and now you’re doing CS Lewis’s untold story, his life in a new way, how do you feel that your understanding of Lewis has grown since the first dramas that you did of Lewis up to today?
Max McLean
Just a simple act of taking a story from page to stage, you know, you really have to know it. You have to understand the movements of it, you have to understand what are the emotional intent? What is he driving at? Where’s he trying to go? And so you really have to get underneath it and then in order to embody it, you just read a lot.
I’ve read probably a dozen biographies of Lewis, read most of his books — not all of them, but most of them, and you get a picture of this huge personality. The smartest guy in the room, and actually, a pretty proud man who judiciously and consciously attempted to live out the Christian faith.
He understood that Christianity makes demands on you. And you have to repent, you have to change. And so he’s always taking this sort of spiritual inventory. The challenge is, that’s hard on us. But Lewis is a really wonderful exemplar of what that looks like when you cross the Rubicon in terms of moving towards salvation, moving towards sanctification. He became perhaps the most influential Christian writer of the 20th century. He struggled with his faith, in terms of the demands of his faith. And not going into easy believe-ism or cheap grace, but really becoming able win the prize,
T Carnes
You’ve captured these moments where he says, I’m smart, but I’m shallow and tinny. And he starts talking to people like JRR Tolkien, the author of Lord of the Rings, and also a scholar. What was Tolkien’s role? His conversations with Lewis came just before Lewis converted,
Max McLean
I think Lewis didn’t know what to make of Jesus Christ. He understood the idea of God. I’m talking about the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He said, his religion was like that of the Jews in the sense of monotheism. He thought heaven was a bribe. If God exists, he is our Creator, and we’re responsible to him. But he did not understand the role of Jesus.
He asked Tolkien the question, I don’t understand how the life and death of someone else 2000 years ago can help us here now. And Tolkein reminded him of something that had begun with the toy garden. When you read a myth, or when you read a story, Adonis, Osiris, Dionysus, or even fairy tales, you like them very much. they move you. And all of these stories are about dying and rising gods. That’s the core story behind the story. And he says, You liked him very much and says, You like these stories of dying and rising Gods when you meet them anywhere except in the Gospels. And then Tolkien made the point that the Jesus story is like the other stories with one significant difference. It really happened. [laughter]
T Carnes
You transform it into dramatic terms. You say something like because Lewis was saying that they’re wrestling with the question, If we’re so separate from God and this is a materialist world, how can we ever get to even know him or meet him? You use a metaphor of Shakespeare meeting Hamlet. Could you talk about that; I found that fascinating.
Max McLean
His first steps towards belief was a kind of an idealism that God was completely other He found that to be very religious, actually, in terms of experience. It also came from the fact that he couldn’t come to terms with “consciousness.” Was his consciousness just a matter of atoms colliding in skulls or is it something else? Because where does meaning come from? Where does purpose come from? Where does thought come from? And so this took him to, well, there had to be a kind of a Deistic First Cause. He said, Okay, I can live with that. Then, he became kind of impressed by that. But he also said this is a God that there’s nothing to obey, nothing to believe. He’s out there, he’ll never come here and make a nuisance of himself. A great line.
And then he had a conversation with TJ Weldon, who is the hardest-boiled atheist ever known, who said to him you know, the historicity of the gospels are surprisingly good. You know, rum thing, all that mythology about dying Gods, it looks like it really happened. And he was kind of stumped by that. So he started taking the Bible a little bit more seriously. And he came to the conclusion that if Hamlet and Shakespeare could ever meet, it would have to be Shakespeare’s doing. He could write himself into the play. And so he said, that’s what God did. He wrote himself into the play.
T Carnes
And what you’re doing on the play right now is you’re writing God, CS Lewis, and the viewers’ lives into this movie. It is a wonderfully shot film. The script is terrific. It has this snapping and energy. And your portrayal of Lewis is nothing less than standing next to him. I would think that anybody should just run to go see this movie.
It has got a small opening. I know you’re trying to build support in this pandemic time. Tell us a little bit about when it’s opening and how can they get tickets?
Max McLean
We’re a theatre company; we’re not a movie company. So, we have to earn our stripes quickly. On November 3, we’re nationwide at over 300 theaters — AMC Regal. You can look it up at CSLewismovie.com. CSLewismovie.com.
T Carnes
This is a great opportunity, during this pandemic period to have some meaning and life and a joy. Thank you very much for being with us, Max!
I’m Tony Carnes, your host for A Journey through NYC religions Television.
Max McLean is an award-winning actor and founder and artistic director of the New York City-based Fellowship for Performing Arts. FPA produces theatre and film from a Christian worldview meant to engage diverse audiences.
FPA produced and Max stars in the upcoming film The Most Reluctant Convert: The Untold Story of C.S. Lewis premiering nationwide Nov. 3
Recent FPA productions in New York City include The Screwtape Letters, The Great Divorce, C.S. Lewis Onstage: The Most Reluctant Convert. Each was either adapted for the stage or written by Max McLean. Other New York productions include Paradise Lost, Shadowlands, A Man for All Seasons, and Martin Luther on Trial.
As an actor, Max created the roles of Screwtape (New York, London, national tour), C.S. Lewis in The Most Reluctant Convert (New York, national tour), and Mark in Mark’s Gospel for which he received a Jeff Award – Chicago theatre’s highest honor.
Max’s work has been cited in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Chicago Tribune, CNN, The Guardian, and The Boston Globe among many others.
His narration of The Listener’s Bible published by HarperCollins and Biblica has received four Audie Award nominations from the Audio Publishers Association.
